‘if You Can Survive The Hill, You Can Survive In Prison’

Barring a last-minute presidential pardon, former Rep. George Santos is about to join the relatively exclusive group of Americans who have spent time in both Congress and federal prison.

There are some similarities between the two locales. Both involve taxpayer subsidies and include individuals of questionable character, but the lifestyles are quite different. Members of Congress have private dining rooms and private elevators; prisoners have no privacy at all.

For a sense of what life will be like for Santos, a New York Republican who wassentenced to more than seven years in prison for his con artist ways, POLITICO Magazine talked toformer Rep. Bob Ney, who, before Santos, was perhaps the most well-known member of Congress to serve time in prison in recent decades. A former chairman of the House Administration Committee, Ney served 17 months in federal prison for his role in theJack Abramoff lobbying scandal.

The Ohio Republican also had some advice for Santos, including what lessons from politics are applicable in prison. And Ney noted that Santos, who wasexpelled by his colleagues, has some experience navigating such a cold-blooded and adversarial environment.

“If you can survive the Hill, you can survive in prison,” he said. “The Hill can be a treacherous place, no question about it.

This conversation has been edited for length and clarity.

What does it feel like knowing that you’re going from being a member of Congress to being a prisoner?

It depends on the person. But let's face it, if you've been in Congress, you have led a different type of life, a different type of schedule and a different type of give and take with people, obviously. I had never spent an hour, ever in my lifetime, in a jail.

I’d dealt with prison issues, but never spent time in a prison. So when you finally realize that's going to happen, it's quite stunning.

How anxious were you about going behind bars?

Your world's falling apart.

You go from being chairman of a committee, member of the House, to you're going to prison. And you hear all these stories that it's a little country club and all that nonsense. Then you hear other stories where you're probably going to be shanked the first day you're in there. You hear everything. I kind of woke up to the fact that when you were a congressman, you voted for the laws that sent people who do drugs to prison

How did you prepare for it?

I met with Webb Hubbell for four hours, and he walked me through everything. [Editor’s note: Hubbell was a close friend and ally of Bill and Hillary Clinton in Arkansas who went to federal prison after getting caught up in the Whitewater scandal.]

I learned everything under the sun from him, everything. The four hours with him was a blessing. He taught me what to do. When you go into prison and you're a member of Congress, they don't have a special place for you or someone to call if somebody is harassing you. My life would have been completely different without him.

Did people know who you were coming into prison?

Everyone knew, because it had been on CNN. There are TV rooms in prison, and everybody knew I was coming.

And here's the worst part. After dinner, they have a movie that can be watched. You can request movies, and they have a lottery to see what movie they will play. What I found out later on is that they had shut the entire prison down on a lockdown because I was coming in. After a while being in there, if they shut the movie off, you’re not happy.

Did being a politician teach you anything useful for prison life?

Webb Hubbell had told me, “Use your political skills. Use humor. And avoid certain things.” After 24 years in office, 11 in Congress, you deal with the public, you deal with some hot situations, people who are angry. He said, “It's no different in there. It's a community. Use those skills.” And being around people all those years in politics, the tens of thousands of people you meet and work with, it helped.

How did prison compare to Capitol Hill?

I loved the Hill, but the Hill could be a vicious place. It could be a blood sport. If you can survive the Hill, you can survive in prison, because people are people, and the Hill can be a treacherous place, no question about it.

One day in rehab, I'm standing there and said, “When I get out of here, I'm going to talk about all the thieves and liars and vicious people that I've had to be around. Maniacs! You can't trust them.” And they're looking at me, and one guy's laughing. He goes, “We're not that bad.” I said, “No, I'm talking about Congress. I'm not talking about you guys.”

How were you regarded in prison?

I made a lot of friends, I really did. I mean, you had some people that weren't friendly, but I made a lot of friends, and people were pretty nice to me. Ed Mezvinsky, Chelsea Clinton's father-in-law, was in there with me. He was pretty well-liked, and we used to joke about running for governor of the prison, me versus Ed.

I was kind of always a congressman. People would come to me and they would say, “Can you talk to me?” Or they would say, “Hey, tell me the secrets. Are there aliens?” Stuff like that. But I had a lot of guys that would come to me, and I used to walk around the yard every night. I walked off 68 pounds in a year. And if people wanted to talk to me, I would say, “Come down, walk with me.” And they would ask me, “How do I start a business? Do you know anything about that?” “What about becoming a realtor?” So I did that. I also tutored guys in prison. We helped them with their resumes, and we did mock interviews for when they got out, when they had to interview with a company.

Then you get people like one guy who told me “You're the reason I'm eating this shitty food. Yes, you did this. Yeah, you did that.” And another friend of mine is like, “Shut the hell up. You're in here because you sold drugs.”

Were you always viewed as a member of Congress or just as another prisoner?

The thing about going in as a congressman, you're going to be labeled because you are going to be looked at as privileged. So when you go in there, you’ve really got to open yourself up, open your mind up and keep some humility to yourself and realize that you’ve just got to take it one day at a time.

What advice would you give to George Santos as he goes into prison?

First of all, there's no internet in the prison, but they have relatives that visit them, and the system knows where George is going to go eventually, and so when I went in, they knew everything about me, what bills I had co-authored, it was amazing. So he should go in understanding they're going to have read about him and know about him.

Number two, it won't carry any weight that he was a former congressman. In fact, again, it will look like somebody of privilege didn't use the privileges they should have. And a lot of people in prison feel that they don't have that privilege. They weren't given that chance to be in the United States Congress, so that's how he'll be looked at. I would say, go in, be low-key but friendly, be real with people and don't make up stories. And also give back. They need volunteers for people that don't have GEDs. There are some people that don't know how to read and write. There's all kinds of things that can be done.

The other thing I would advise him is this: You can go in there and you can come out having a real problem mentally. It can happen to anybody. So you need to go in and focus on self help. There are books in these facilities that people can read and keep busy. One of the main problems in these systems is keeping busy — boredom — there's not a lot out there to focus on. You need to create that type of environment for yourself, where you're reading and learning and giving back to fellow inmates. And he has to remember that he is a fellow inmate. He's one of them.

Santos said in an interview that he was concerned he’d be targeted by gangs like MS-13 because he’d voted for law enforcement to go after them in Congress. Is that an issue?

When I walked in prison the first day, a guy stopped me. He said, “You co-authored the bill that put me in here.” I think it was dealing with stealing Sudafed to make methamphetamine. I said, “I didn't do that.” I supported the bill, but I can't remember what it was, an amendment or bill or something. But I said, “We all put ourselves in here.” And then I walked away, because you want to defuse things.